Star Trek XI - Novelization versus movie
May. 13th, 2009 08:23 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
blairprovenceI always find comparision between original shooting scripts and the final product interesting, because it can give you a decent picture into the aims and priorities of the moviemakers. The tie-in novel is usually based on the early shooting script rather than the final product, so you can get an idea about dialogue changes and cut scenes.
But you have to remember that the internal dialogue of the characters is based on the author's conclusions of what the script means, so that can alter the characterization in some ways. Still, Alan Dean Foster is a pretty good writer, so I ponied up for the book. My verdict: Not bad, though it suffers for the dialogue changes.
I thought I'd offer a bit of a comparison for those who plan to fanfic, though. I subscribe to the "It's only canon if it's on screen" school of thought, but I tend to include the cut stuff I like. I like to have my cake and eat it, too.
1) The first scene in the book is Amanda giving birth, and then giving Sarek a hard time about not being there for it ("It's not traditional") They name him Spock after an earlier Vulcan society-builder.
2) The Kelvin bridge scene contains a lot more dialogue pre-attack, and the later mention of the fact that no one's seen a Romulan in fifty years.
3) Young Spock hears his parents arguing about the "right to fight back" after the learning center brawl. Sarek assures Spock he will never have to choose between his father and his mother.
4) The car scene starts at the house, where Jim is cleaning and waxing under the orders of his stepfather Frank. Jim's older brother George leaves to run away, to the jeers of Frank, because the boys' stepfather is horrible. George tells Jim that Frank is making him wash the car (which was George senior's) because he's going to sell it without telling Winona. George tells Jim he'll be all right because he's not like George, he's "always doing everything right, good grades, teacher's pet, doing everything you're told." Then George hugs Jim and takes off.
I think this scene does a lot to elicit sympathy for Jim, but I can see why they cut it. Some manner of explanation that the kid he passes in the car is his brother would have been good, though. I feel like Jim having an older brother makes his birth a little problematic. George junior couldn't have been on the ship - the families thing came during TNG. So where was he? And where is he later? Hmmm.
5) The Vulcan Science Academy scene contains a lot more dialogue - including the idea that Spock will be the first Vulcan to attend Starfleet Academy. I'm not sure how that jibes with Enterprise. Foster also explicitly suggests that his final "Live long and prosper" to the elder is along the lines of an upraised middle finger.
6) Jim is A LOT more obnoxious in the bar scenes - not to Uhura, but to the other cadets and to Pike. He accuses the other cadets of being jealous that he didn't come on to them, calls their punching adorable, and makes fun of their form-fitting outfits. All in all, I'm glad the filmmakers left this out.
7) Pike tells Kirk his father didn't believe in the no-win scenario, to which Kirk replies "He sure learned HIS lesson." Pike says it depends on how you define it, since Jim is there. "Not sure I'd call that a win."
This is interesting given Jim's response to the Kobyashi Maru, and Pike's willingness to field-promote him in spite of the Kobyashi trouble.
Jim sort of blows him off in the end - "We're even, right? I can go? Or do I have to sit through more of the sermon?"
I'm glad they left everything out that they left out of this scene, which I think would only have worked if they left in the preceding scene with Frank. Otherwise, there's not enough sympathy in the well to overcome the sheer annoyingness of a lot of Jim's dialogue.
8) Jim tells Pike he charmed his way onto the starship base thing because he told the gate guard he was Pike's nephew and she believed him because she was a girl and he's charming. (Ugh, another good cut.) Pike says Kirk can use him as a reference.
9) During the Jim and Gaila in Uhura's room scene, Uhura chews the roommate out in Orion Prime, which Jim later reveals he understands. The whole scene does a lot to establish both Jim and Uhura as pretty damn smart and expert, which I wish they'd have kept in, though it probably slowed down the movie.
10) The cadets don't know why the assembly has been called. Jim tells Bones he thinks he made Valedictorian, or is getting a commendation for beating the simulation. Which to me says he must have done pretty well in all his classes, something it would have been nice to have delineated.
11) The argument in front of the assembly is a lot longer. (Aside: I'm not sure I understand why Spock's argument even holds water, since Jim took the test twice before - weren't all of his goals for the test satisfied by those first two tries? Or was the important lesson that Jim should stop trying, give up completely and admit defeat for all time? Confused.) Kirk asks if Spock has taken the test and Spock basically says a Vulcan doesn't need to because they are always reasoned and logical. Frankly, Spock comes off a lot more cocky than Jim in this scene.
12) On the way out Pike tells Kirk, "Cheating isn't winning." Glad they cut that.
13) When Uhura out-argues Spock for the Enterprise, she lists all her qualifications, which are quite impressive. Again, would have liked to keep that.
14) Foster writes that Chekov probably came from the "Star City Conservatory" near Moscow instead of from the Academy, which is interesting. It's not from any dialogue but may have been a script note or something. I thought you had to go to the Academy to be an officer in the Fleet.
15) After Kirk says his theory and Uhura and Spock back him up, Pike has them drop out of warp, briefly while they try to contact the ships, planet, etc. They watch the ships begin to die on screen and go back to warp. Probably a good change, would have slowed the action.
16) Nero tells Pike that his name is Oren (with, like, every accent key from the keyboard) and that Nero is the human larynx approximation.
17) When Pike takes Sulu and Kirk and Spock to the shuttle, there's a lot more dialogue, but none of it needed. Good cut.
18) The Romulans say that the drill is needed because core heat and pressure is required to set off the Red Matter reaction.
19) As Spock gets up to leave the bridge, he says the Vulcan High Command is transporter-proof due to waveform shielding. Then he leaves Uhura the conn, which I wish they'd kept, but instead they have her follow him and he leaves Chekov the conn.
20) Uhura helps Chekov with the transporter lock. (I'm starting to see a pattern here - they took away a lot of the Uhura professional stuff.)
21) The Vulcans Spock rescues bring along a large ark of something which presumably would help with "retaining their culture". Like an emergency kit? I don't know.
22) The alternate timeline discussion has a LOT more dialogue - well trimmed, I think.
Kirk argues that Captain Pike "believes officers shouldn't blindly follow orders without looking for alternative ways of doing things. I can speak to that from personal experience." Intriguing, no?
They discuss the possibility that if they manage to stop Nero he'll just travel in time again, but there's nothing they can do about it.
Kirk tries to get McCoy to declare Spock unfit for duty, so Spock says that's mutiny. Then Kirk tries to cite him as emotionally compromised under Regulation One-twenty-one. (This is all very odd, as Older Spock suggests it to Kirk later under a different regulation just like in the movie, and Kirk doesn't mention already trying it in the book. More than one draft of the script, maybe?) Spock says failure to comply with a direct order is a court-martial offense, and McCoy says "Jim, please, he's the CAPTAIN!" Foster gives Jim internal dialogue to make him feel betrayed by McCoy at this point, but it seems weak.
Spock says Kirk's resourcefulness means that he can't remain on the ship because he would get out of the brig and suborn others to unwise actions. Cue fight and nerve pinch.
This is WAY too much dialogue for this point in the drama. Some of it's interesting and would probably fill in minor plot holes, but it is a HUGE conversation and is probably better off trimmed.
23) Nero tells Pike he likes humans way better than Vulcans (because they can feel, and suffer and belong to the universe just like Romulans), but unfortunately, Fleet and Federation headquarters are on Earth, so it has to go.
Nero tells Pike that he WILL save Romulus, but first he will ensure that they are unfettered by the Federation.
24) Kirk records a monologue as he walks on Hoth about Spock violating the regs about the treatment of prisoners and dumping him "on the friggin' icebox of the galaxy."
25) Spock Prime tries to convince Jim that he knows him by saying his name, his father's name, his brother's name, his mother's name, "You were born in the year twenty-two thirty-three on a farm in Iowa..." And Kirk says he was born on a ship. Dun DUN DUN!
Spock theorizes that their oh-so-convenient meeting is a product of the time stream perhaps trying to correct itself.
Spock says communications on Delta Vega were inadequate to warn Vulcan and he's been avoiding the station to keep from harming the time stream (this seems shaky, better left out - more logical that he just didn't have time to try). He and Kirk spend a long time discussing Nero, to no great end. Spock asks Kirk about Chekov, Uhura and Sulu, and again theorizes that the timestream is trying to mend itself.
26) Scotty's alien friend speaks a lot more in the book.
27) When Kirk takes over on the Enterprise, Chekov, Sulu and Uhura demand an explanation before supporting him, and he tells them about SpockPrime and that they can't tell Spock about him. They discuss the alternate timeline thing again. It perhaps adds a bit to their characters but is probably better cut.
28) When Kirk and Spock are leaving for the Romulan ship, Uhura is fitting Spock with a Romulan translator instead of making out with him (although she gives him one kiss). I think leaving this out was good, unless they want to provide translators for every future otherSpecies scene. (How does the Universal Translator work, exactly?)
29) Spock can't mind meld the Romulan, so Kirk orders him to MAKE HIM TALK with Vulcan marial arts, which Spock says are only to be used on occasions of imminent threat, which Kirk convinces him this is. So Spock punches him into cooperating. It's interesting to ponder why they left this part out.
30) Spock's reaction to Kirk offering to assist the Romulans is different than in the movie - I can't remember what he said in the movie, but I remember cracking up. Instead: "Captain, he destroyed my home planet. As a human might say - to hell with logic." I definitely think the movie line was better.
31) Pike gives Kirk the "commendation for original thinking" that he talked about in "The Wrath of Khan" after the captaining ceremony.
32) Kirk tells Spock he broke the Kobyashi Maru encryption code by taking advantage of the fact that "Orion women talk in their sleep." Spock says he'll never understand cheating. Kirk says to give it time.
33) A beagle with very peculiar ears materializes in the transporter room in the last scene. I get the feeling that this was a Foster addition, but it's just a feeling.
I have to say, in the end, I think most of the cuts were a good idea. They could have left a few of the dialogue indicators that all of these people were really exceptionally smart in, though.
But you have to remember that the internal dialogue of the characters is based on the author's conclusions of what the script means, so that can alter the characterization in some ways. Still, Alan Dean Foster is a pretty good writer, so I ponied up for the book. My verdict: Not bad, though it suffers for the dialogue changes.
I thought I'd offer a bit of a comparison for those who plan to fanfic, though. I subscribe to the "It's only canon if it's on screen" school of thought, but I tend to include the cut stuff I like. I like to have my cake and eat it, too.
1) The first scene in the book is Amanda giving birth, and then giving Sarek a hard time about not being there for it ("It's not traditional") They name him Spock after an earlier Vulcan society-builder.
2) The Kelvin bridge scene contains a lot more dialogue pre-attack, and the later mention of the fact that no one's seen a Romulan in fifty years.
3) Young Spock hears his parents arguing about the "right to fight back" after the learning center brawl. Sarek assures Spock he will never have to choose between his father and his mother.
4) The car scene starts at the house, where Jim is cleaning and waxing under the orders of his stepfather Frank. Jim's older brother George leaves to run away, to the jeers of Frank, because the boys' stepfather is horrible. George tells Jim that Frank is making him wash the car (which was George senior's) because he's going to sell it without telling Winona. George tells Jim he'll be all right because he's not like George, he's "always doing everything right, good grades, teacher's pet, doing everything you're told." Then George hugs Jim and takes off.
I think this scene does a lot to elicit sympathy for Jim, but I can see why they cut it. Some manner of explanation that the kid he passes in the car is his brother would have been good, though. I feel like Jim having an older brother makes his birth a little problematic. George junior couldn't have been on the ship - the families thing came during TNG. So where was he? And where is he later? Hmmm.
5) The Vulcan Science Academy scene contains a lot more dialogue - including the idea that Spock will be the first Vulcan to attend Starfleet Academy. I'm not sure how that jibes with Enterprise. Foster also explicitly suggests that his final "Live long and prosper" to the elder is along the lines of an upraised middle finger.
6) Jim is A LOT more obnoxious in the bar scenes - not to Uhura, but to the other cadets and to Pike. He accuses the other cadets of being jealous that he didn't come on to them, calls their punching adorable, and makes fun of their form-fitting outfits. All in all, I'm glad the filmmakers left this out.
7) Pike tells Kirk his father didn't believe in the no-win scenario, to which Kirk replies "He sure learned HIS lesson." Pike says it depends on how you define it, since Jim is there. "Not sure I'd call that a win."
This is interesting given Jim's response to the Kobyashi Maru, and Pike's willingness to field-promote him in spite of the Kobyashi trouble.
Jim sort of blows him off in the end - "We're even, right? I can go? Or do I have to sit through more of the sermon?"
I'm glad they left everything out that they left out of this scene, which I think would only have worked if they left in the preceding scene with Frank. Otherwise, there's not enough sympathy in the well to overcome the sheer annoyingness of a lot of Jim's dialogue.
8) Jim tells Pike he charmed his way onto the starship base thing because he told the gate guard he was Pike's nephew and she believed him because she was a girl and he's charming. (Ugh, another good cut.) Pike says Kirk can use him as a reference.
9) During the Jim and Gaila in Uhura's room scene, Uhura chews the roommate out in Orion Prime, which Jim later reveals he understands. The whole scene does a lot to establish both Jim and Uhura as pretty damn smart and expert, which I wish they'd have kept in, though it probably slowed down the movie.
10) The cadets don't know why the assembly has been called. Jim tells Bones he thinks he made Valedictorian, or is getting a commendation for beating the simulation. Which to me says he must have done pretty well in all his classes, something it would have been nice to have delineated.
11) The argument in front of the assembly is a lot longer. (Aside: I'm not sure I understand why Spock's argument even holds water, since Jim took the test twice before - weren't all of his goals for the test satisfied by those first two tries? Or was the important lesson that Jim should stop trying, give up completely and admit defeat for all time? Confused.) Kirk asks if Spock has taken the test and Spock basically says a Vulcan doesn't need to because they are always reasoned and logical. Frankly, Spock comes off a lot more cocky than Jim in this scene.
12) On the way out Pike tells Kirk, "Cheating isn't winning." Glad they cut that.
13) When Uhura out-argues Spock for the Enterprise, she lists all her qualifications, which are quite impressive. Again, would have liked to keep that.
14) Foster writes that Chekov probably came from the "Star City Conservatory" near Moscow instead of from the Academy, which is interesting. It's not from any dialogue but may have been a script note or something. I thought you had to go to the Academy to be an officer in the Fleet.
15) After Kirk says his theory and Uhura and Spock back him up, Pike has them drop out of warp, briefly while they try to contact the ships, planet, etc. They watch the ships begin to die on screen and go back to warp. Probably a good change, would have slowed the action.
16) Nero tells Pike that his name is Oren (with, like, every accent key from the keyboard) and that Nero is the human larynx approximation.
17) When Pike takes Sulu and Kirk and Spock to the shuttle, there's a lot more dialogue, but none of it needed. Good cut.
18) The Romulans say that the drill is needed because core heat and pressure is required to set off the Red Matter reaction.
19) As Spock gets up to leave the bridge, he says the Vulcan High Command is transporter-proof due to waveform shielding. Then he leaves Uhura the conn, which I wish they'd kept, but instead they have her follow him and he leaves Chekov the conn.
20) Uhura helps Chekov with the transporter lock. (I'm starting to see a pattern here - they took away a lot of the Uhura professional stuff.)
21) The Vulcans Spock rescues bring along a large ark of something which presumably would help with "retaining their culture". Like an emergency kit? I don't know.
22) The alternate timeline discussion has a LOT more dialogue - well trimmed, I think.
Kirk argues that Captain Pike "believes officers shouldn't blindly follow orders without looking for alternative ways of doing things. I can speak to that from personal experience." Intriguing, no?
They discuss the possibility that if they manage to stop Nero he'll just travel in time again, but there's nothing they can do about it.
Kirk tries to get McCoy to declare Spock unfit for duty, so Spock says that's mutiny. Then Kirk tries to cite him as emotionally compromised under Regulation One-twenty-one. (This is all very odd, as Older Spock suggests it to Kirk later under a different regulation just like in the movie, and Kirk doesn't mention already trying it in the book. More than one draft of the script, maybe?) Spock says failure to comply with a direct order is a court-martial offense, and McCoy says "Jim, please, he's the CAPTAIN!" Foster gives Jim internal dialogue to make him feel betrayed by McCoy at this point, but it seems weak.
Spock says Kirk's resourcefulness means that he can't remain on the ship because he would get out of the brig and suborn others to unwise actions. Cue fight and nerve pinch.
This is WAY too much dialogue for this point in the drama. Some of it's interesting and would probably fill in minor plot holes, but it is a HUGE conversation and is probably better off trimmed.
23) Nero tells Pike he likes humans way better than Vulcans (because they can feel, and suffer and belong to the universe just like Romulans), but unfortunately, Fleet and Federation headquarters are on Earth, so it has to go.
Nero tells Pike that he WILL save Romulus, but first he will ensure that they are unfettered by the Federation.
24) Kirk records a monologue as he walks on Hoth about Spock violating the regs about the treatment of prisoners and dumping him "on the friggin' icebox of the galaxy."
25) Spock Prime tries to convince Jim that he knows him by saying his name, his father's name, his brother's name, his mother's name, "You were born in the year twenty-two thirty-three on a farm in Iowa..." And Kirk says he was born on a ship. Dun DUN DUN!
Spock theorizes that their oh-so-convenient meeting is a product of the time stream perhaps trying to correct itself.
Spock says communications on Delta Vega were inadequate to warn Vulcan and he's been avoiding the station to keep from harming the time stream (this seems shaky, better left out - more logical that he just didn't have time to try). He and Kirk spend a long time discussing Nero, to no great end. Spock asks Kirk about Chekov, Uhura and Sulu, and again theorizes that the timestream is trying to mend itself.
26) Scotty's alien friend speaks a lot more in the book.
27) When Kirk takes over on the Enterprise, Chekov, Sulu and Uhura demand an explanation before supporting him, and he tells them about SpockPrime and that they can't tell Spock about him. They discuss the alternate timeline thing again. It perhaps adds a bit to their characters but is probably better cut.
28) When Kirk and Spock are leaving for the Romulan ship, Uhura is fitting Spock with a Romulan translator instead of making out with him (although she gives him one kiss). I think leaving this out was good, unless they want to provide translators for every future otherSpecies scene. (How does the Universal Translator work, exactly?)
29) Spock can't mind meld the Romulan, so Kirk orders him to MAKE HIM TALK with Vulcan marial arts, which Spock says are only to be used on occasions of imminent threat, which Kirk convinces him this is. So Spock punches him into cooperating. It's interesting to ponder why they left this part out.
30) Spock's reaction to Kirk offering to assist the Romulans is different than in the movie - I can't remember what he said in the movie, but I remember cracking up. Instead: "Captain, he destroyed my home planet. As a human might say - to hell with logic." I definitely think the movie line was better.
31) Pike gives Kirk the "commendation for original thinking" that he talked about in "The Wrath of Khan" after the captaining ceremony.
32) Kirk tells Spock he broke the Kobyashi Maru encryption code by taking advantage of the fact that "Orion women talk in their sleep." Spock says he'll never understand cheating. Kirk says to give it time.
33) A beagle with very peculiar ears materializes in the transporter room in the last scene. I get the feeling that this was a Foster addition, but it's just a feeling.
I have to say, in the end, I think most of the cuts were a good idea. They could have left a few of the dialogue indicators that all of these people were really exceptionally smart in, though.
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no subject
Date: 2009-05-14 04:46 am (UTC)This is quite different from my experience with the Revenge of the Sith novelization by Matthew Stover, which, along with the novel that comes before it, Labryinth of Evil, is SO MANY TIMES BETTER than the movie I don't actually count the movie in my canon in light of it.
no subject
Date: 2009-05-14 06:25 am (UTC)I will not even get started on comparing movies made from books to the books themselves. Usually they suffer mightily in comparison. Exception? The Princess Bride.
I often find that the actors' performances are really what makes the dialogue. I think that's definitely true for Star Trek.
no subject
Date: 2009-05-14 06:40 am (UTC)The Princess Bride was a special case, too. :x William Goldman wrote the book and the screenplay. He's responsible for my favorite movie, Butch Cassiday and the Sundance Kid. XD
I agree that the actors for Star Trek brought their A game, though. It's defintely a notch above!
no subject
Date: 2009-05-14 04:50 am (UTC)I wonder if any of the cut scenes might end up on DVD deleted scenes. Guess it depends how old the script the novel is based on was...
Also, dude, now I want to see the movie again. Curses.
no subject
Date: 2009-05-14 05:11 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-05-14 06:26 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-05-14 05:11 am (UTC)The beagle is Porthos, course, Admiral Archer's beagle that Scotty lost.
Boo to the cutting Smartness of Uhura.
no subject
Date: 2009-05-14 06:29 am (UTC)I did know about Porthos - cute dog, though apparently incredibly long-lived? What I meant was, I find it hard to believe that it was the actual scripted last scene of the movie, since Scotty's reference to it was sort of blink-and-you-miss-it. Much better to go out with a scene of the bridge crew.
no subject
Date: 2009-05-15 10:52 am (UTC)As to Vulcans in Starfleet, I wonder if they were just taking them from, say, the Vulcan Science Academy and/or the Vulcan space service and giving them an appropriate rank in Starfleet. Because that's basically what they did with T'Pol.
no subject
Date: 2009-05-14 05:39 am (UTC)As to where he was at the time of Jim's birth, I imagine he was back on earth, living with relatives. Winona probably decided to work up until her due date, or maybe Jim came early, which would explain why she wasn't in planetary facilities at the time. There were some married couples aboardship during the TOS timeline, but it's pretty canon that spacers were away from their families a lot, men and women both.
no subject
Date: 2009-05-14 06:32 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-05-14 05:53 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-05-14 06:33 am (UTC)Lj keeps eating my comment so I'm going to try spilting it up...
Date: 2009-05-14 06:12 am (UTC)T’Pol worked for the Vulcan High Council on the Science Ministry. She never when to Starfleet Academy. In the original timeline Spock was the first Vulcan to go to Starfleet through the Academy but he was by no means the first Vulcan to ever work for Starfleet.
(Aside: I'm not sure I understand why Spock's argument even holds water, since Jim took the test twice before - weren't all of his goals for the test satisfied by those first two tries? Or was the important lesson that Jim should stop trying, give up completely and admit defeat for all time? Confused.)
Bases on what I remember from Voyager (the episode where Tuvok tries to integrate Chakotey’s old crew in the Voyager crew by putting them through Academy boot. Which includes a Kobyashi Maru simulation or a similar one -- btw the way it’s been a while since I seen this), the point isn’t how many times you take it. In fact it seems like the more times you take the more your actually failing at getting the point. The point is to make the person in the captain’s position understand acceptable losses in tactical situation before they get into a real situation. Probably the only “right” way to “win” is to retreat. Because there is no way to “win” in the way that Kirk wants to. The fact that Kirk essentially changed the test to “win” defeated the purpose of the test. I think that the point that Spock was trying to make in the movie and I’m not sure if that what they were saying the book (haven’t read it yet) but that what I think anyway.
Part two:
Date: 2009-05-14 06:13 am (UTC)Yeah I liked the movie line better. It was something like: “Normally yes, but this time not so much.” and that line makes no sense if you don’t know that Kirk’s line a second before was something like: “I was trying to use logic, I thought you would like that.” --btw that line made the K/S shipper in me squee XD
28) When Kirk and Spock are leaving for the Romulan ship, Uhura is fitting Spock with a Romulan translator instead of making out with him (although she gives him one kiss). I think leaving this out was good, unless they want to provide translators for every future otherSpecies scene. (How does the Universal Translator work, exactly?)
I would have preferred this version of events, personally. Probably my only grip about this movie is that they didn’t do any justice to Uhura’s character. I’m cool with Spock/Uhura but something’s thinking about it felt like the only reason Uhura was there was to be Spock’s girlfriend which bugs me. The Universal Translator is canon in the original series so that no problem and if they didn’t want to do that. They could have Uhura giving last minute tactical information and giving Spock a quick kiss. The make out session seemed to me to be more a “Hey look Kirk didn’t get the girl! OMG!” which left me going “wtf, why does that matter? get to the action kthxb."
I also wish that they didn’t take out 9) for similar reasons because it would have been showing much more of Uhura’s character.
Over all I think that most of a pacing cuts sound like a good idea. Though I wish they didn’t take out the stuff with wee!Spock because it’s Spock when he’s little (queue aww noises).
Re: Part two:
Date: 2009-05-15 12:52 am (UTC)I take your point about the Kobyashi Maru, although I don't think I'd much WANT a Captain who says, "Sorry, you're on the other side of the line, enjoy your suffocation." I'd want one who, y'know, "Never gives up, Never Surrenders." (Or whatever the Galaxy Quest thing was.) If the purpose of the test was to see a reaction to not being able to win, the testers DID see that with Kirk twice. I just feel like what they ALSO wanted was for him to say it was okay with him.
I like your idea about Uhura giving the tactical info - I just see a problem with them having an actual translator thingy, because then they would always have to have it, you know? And I think the making out would have bugged me a little less if they'd left in all the other moments where she kicked ass (enumerated above). I mean, she was still pretty kickass, but there can't be too much, y'know?
Re: Part two:
Date: 2009-05-15 02:05 am (UTC)Yeah that I what I think it is also. The way I think about is, that the Kobyashi Maru test doesn't end until the person taking the test is able to come to grips with failing the test. The higher the stakes (like another ship depending on you to rescue them)the harder it is to admit too failing. Kirk never might have taken it twice but the fact that he kept coming back just meant that he never really finished taking the test. Kind of like what
I just see a problem with them having an actual translator thingy, because then they would always have to have it, you know?
Once again bring up Voyager (because that and TNG were the ones I watched the most of), I believe that the universal translator actually gets built into the comm badges so as long as they have their comm badge they have a translator, unless the language is just too different that the translator can't work(hey it has happened in Voyager). I also think its the best hand wave-y explanation about why they all speak the same language. If something like that isn't explained at least once somewhere in the universe (even if it's a hand wave- don't look close or you'll see the plot holes type of explanation), it starts to bug me. (Also the universal isn't that crazy of an idea consider there is something very similar to it being used today as a spoken word/written word translator between Earth languages (http://domino.research.ibm.com/comm/research_projects.nsf/pages/mastor.index.html))
I completely agree that they should have left in the Uhura kicks ass moments. :)
Re: Part two:
Date: 2009-05-15 07:44 am (UTC)Re: Part two:
Date: 2009-05-15 08:14 am (UTC)Re: Lj keeps eating my comment so I'm going to try spilting it up...
Date: 2009-05-14 08:36 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-05-14 12:40 pm (UTC)wtf at jim's older brother
no subject
Date: 2009-05-15 12:53 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-06-11 10:31 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-05-14 02:48 pm (UTC)OREN.
As in NERO BACKWARDS?! Lazy. :P
Also, I kinda wish Porthos *had* materialized at the end of the movie, that would've made my dog-loving husband and I feel a lot better about the throwaway line.
no subject
Date: 2009-05-15 12:56 am (UTC)Which really makes very little sense as a script line, because the ACTOR is human and will therefore have to pronounce all the incomprehensible accents. And I don't actually remember any Romulan names from previously but I don't remember them being hard to pronounce. Weird.
no subject
Date: 2009-05-14 06:42 pm (UTC)It's the not!expression in his voice and face that Make It, tho.
no subject
Date: 2009-05-15 12:56 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-05-15 03:48 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-05-15 07:51 am (UTC)Which is a pretty esoteric way to get to the nickname Bones, if that's what they were intimating. Probably a good dialogue change.
The discussion where he drags Kirk on to the Enterprise contains a lot more dialogue about what he injects and the medical particulars, but is substantially the same. McCoy is a lot more verbose about what's wrong with Kirk to the boarding officer - the medical equivalent of technobabble, and the argument for taking him on board is a lot longer. The end result is the same, though. Probably trimmed for pacing.
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Date: 2009-05-15 04:50 am (UTC)Thanks :)
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Date: 2009-05-15 07:52 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-05-15 02:52 pm (UTC)But thanks for answering :)
Guess we wait until the DVD, or pray that someone leaks the footage first -_-
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Date: 2009-05-29 06:47 am (UTC)I'd have liked to see Jim speaking Orion, because some people seem to forget that he's really smart too (don't know why) and because I like to see him being really smart.
Some professional-Uhura scenes would have been nice, even if I wouldn't necessarily go with her helping with beaming, because that's just not her field. They did some nice things with her in the beginning of the big action when she was essential to confirming the threat, but after that she didn't have enough to do.
The Beagle rematerialization scene might have made a nice extra to put after the credits. A small bonus for people who stayed until the very end.
(Before I really knew what Star Trek was I got an old book (must have been written in the 80's at the latest) from the library where TOS cast + Admiral (or was he Captain in that one) Archer and his wife travel to a universe where everybody ages backwards. Somehow (I did read this about 12 years ago) the deageing of the crew is accelerated and it gets dangerous when they get too young to operate the ship. Archer and his wife being older at the beginning save them somehow and decide to stay deaged and not go through the reaging process like the rest of the crew. All this was of course written a long time before Enterprise, but it does mean that Archer could still have been around (although not deaged (yet?)).
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Date: 2009-05-30 06:22 am (UTC)I do want them to give Uhura a lot of kickass stuff in the next movie, but I don't necessarily want her to be kicking ass. You don't have to be Buffy to be a strong female character; they should just highlight Uhura's strengths.
I think that old book is actually about Captain Robert April, who was the original captain of the Enterprise in (I think) the animated series. I don't think Archer was invented until the show Enterprise was. I did hear that the writers said that the Archer mentioned in the movie is the one from Enterprise, though, and he's just very old.
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Date: 2009-05-31 11:38 am (UTC)April/Archer, as I said it was a long time ago, you are probably right.
I don't like the idea of Kirk speculating whether he's to be valedictorian, because the contrast with the adcademic suspension he actually gets hits my embarassement squick.
I think a better (and shorter) way to underscore the intelligent!/genius!-Kirk point would have been a line at the trial from the official along the lines of: "You've done the four ear program in three years, still managed to be valedictorian and why did you see it necessary to do this?"
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Date: 2010-08-25 03:41 pm (UTC)Anyway, regards to Kirk calling himself valedictorian, I like the situation feanna has, where someone else in authority brings it up. That would have been pretty effective (and much, much less squicky than sleeping with Gaila for stealing the answers).
But I did like what kei_rin pointed out about the Kobyashi Maru, that Kirk simply wasn't getting the point of the test, and that's why the cheating is such a problem. Because he's gone through the rest of the program so fast, I got the impression that he's retaking it fairly quickly. So, if he's supposed to be internalizing real-life consequences, that's strike one in terms of 'getting it'.
Also, in the second movie, after Spock has saved the ship, he asks Kirk something like "I never took the Kobyashi Maru. What do you think of my solution?" And Kirk looks like he's been hit the face with a shovel (I found that the most moving part actually). So I'm okay with the objections to the determination of changing the parameters=cheating.
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Date: 2009-06-10 07:20 am (UTC)Is it possible that T'Pol never had to attend Starfleet Academy, having received separate training on Vulcan? My impression is that she was placed there to observe, because the Vulcans didn't entirely trust humans to Not Blow Things Up.
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Date: 2009-06-14 07:01 am (UTC)5) No, no, Spock is definitely the first Vulcan to go to the Academy. T'Pol was not part of Starfleet. She was like an adviser or something along those lines as far as I can remember. (Wasn't a huge fan of that series.) I vaguely recall the Vulcans being even more condescending than usual in that series. They were being all "look both ways before you cross the street" and "don't take candy from strangers" and T'Pol was supposed to keep the humans out of trouble before she realized that humans? Actually a lot more fun than Vulcans.
9) I LOVE smart!Kirk, especially when people aren't expecting it so this would have been wonderful to see.
25) This makes me feel so much better. The only thing I didn't like about the film (besides Uhura/Spock) was randomly meeting Spock!Prime. I can totally get on board with "timeline attempting to correct itself".
32) LIES! He broke it because he's brilliant. That's way too close to sleeping for a grade. >:(
BTW, thank you for taking the time to do this, I didn't really want to read the novel. The Uhura/Spock rubs me the wrong way and I was afraid it would be even worse in the book.
P.S. With regard to Hoth/Delta Vega? Did you know that DV predates Hoth? DV is from TOS canon AND Spock suggested they maroon somebody on it. Which they ended up having to do, temporarily. ISN'T THAT AMAZING? I think it's amazing. I think, secretly, Spock likes marooning people. He's a repressed drama queen.
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Date: 2009-06-14 08:48 pm (UTC)Spock is definitely a repressed drama queen. And they should have left in some of the references that showed Kirk was brilliant.